Curse

Lieutenant Banana · Oct 09, 2009, 03:36 AM // 03:36

I've owned Guild Wars for, according to my in-game check, 58 days now. I have yet to familiarize myself with so many concepts and logistics of the game it's not even funny (calling a target? lolwut?). Yet even in this short period of time, I've come to one depressing realization: the Assassin is dead.

"What?" I hear you cry. "How can this be? The Assassin is one of the most-played classes in the game!" To which I offer one simple reply, which is likely to get me summarily banned from further postings in this forum (but what fun is life without risks?): the PermaFormer isn't a true Assassin.

Really, though. Get over the initial shock and think about it for a moment. What was the Assassin at its inception? A nimble, mid- to front-line physical DPS class, excelling at quickly dispatching specific targets and retreating to safety before the enemy could do so much as blink. There was tremendous variation available in the class by its very nature: Do I spec Deadly Arts to inflict long-term misery on my enemies, or do I opt for the quick-and-dirty slice and dice of Dagger Mastery? How high is too high to boost my Critical Strikes skill? (Answer: No such thing.) And is Aura of Displacement really worth taking up my elite slot with, or can I just use Death's Charge and pray that my monk's on top of things?

Such was the Assassin in its heyday, and such was what I was expecting when I first fired up Guild War and instantly--instantly--jumped towards the Assassin class. But what has the Assassin become? A niche class. Not just a niche build--for most builds are, to a greater or lesser extent, designed to fulfill a niche function--but an entire class seemingly devoted exclusively to the eternal maintenance of the loathsome Shadow Form. Now, I make good money selling consets to the permaformers, so I'm far from free of complicity in this fiasco. But I find it somewhat objectionable when one build becomes so dominant that an entire class begins to revolve around that one build. Now, granted that there are other classes who have come to be dominated by one particular build--witness the SS Rit, the 600 monk, the W/N Raptor farmer. But for all that, there still exist very mainstream alternatives to each of these--how about a healing Rit? A 55? A Hundred Blades DPS Warrior (or an Endure Pain/Warrior's Endurance tank)? But when was the last time you saw an Assassin who wasn't a permaformer being given serious consideration for inclusion into any end-game dungeon or area? (DoA, ToPK, UW, FoW...you know what I mean.)

Perhaps this viewpoint is born of ignorance or alack of longevity as a player, but from my point of view, the Assassin is dead. The hordes of Permasins running around laughing as they aggro 80 Raptors and cut them down with one click of SA have about as much in common with the original manifestation of the Assassin as apples do to elephants. So forgive me if this comes off as snide or precious, especially given my status as a GW greenhorn, but the permasin has killed what is otherwise by far my favorite class...and occasionally, it gets to me.

/Rantoff ...comments, criticisms, and thoughts are obviously welcome.

_Nihilist_ · Oct 09, 2009, 04:02 AM // 04:02

I wouldn't say that the Assassin profession is dead... MS/DB Assassins and CritScythe Sins are around, and LF Assassins loaded up with buffs eat face...

But I do agree that too many shitters are (ab)using PermaForm, and ever since it has been permanently maintainable it should have been hit with the nerfbat harder and more often than a pinata at a birthday party.

Gennadios · Oct 09, 2009, 07:33 AM // 07:33

My first 58 days of game time was spent getting to know my first class and finding skills and combos to make it workable in a team setting. I could care less what builds other people were using or abusing, particularly the farming ones.

How have *you* been spending your time?

damkel · Oct 09, 2009, 09:53 AM // 09:53

Yeah dude, some of us here have stuck with this game (and its classes) since it was released. A lot of the assassin nerfs (and buffs) are justified if you look at the bigger picture and appreciate how the all the classes work together (or against eachother). To add salt the wound, everyone knows SF is going to be fixed after halloween.

Perfected Shadow · Oct 09, 2009, 11:09 AM // 11:09

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retreating to safety before the enemy could do so much as blink...Such was the Assassin in its heyday

Really? Think about aura of displacement and similar skills, actually consider all shadowsteps, they all have recharges that are too long for general pve. They're just not worth it. The exception is Ebon Escape, but that takes up a pve skill slot. Meh I guess you could do some AP dagger builds with a shadowstep.

But yeah once shadow form dies (better if they change it to something completely different; but still usable), pretty much every sin in the game will disappear. That's because most just can't frontline for shit, which is partly due to so much fail ingrained in people's heads. e.g. 'tank n spank is teh only way to do everything', 'nukkerrrs are the end all be all of damage', 7-heal monk bars, ignorance of SY and prot, ignorance of hex/condition removal, list goes on.

~ Dan ~ · Oct 09, 2009, 11:12 AM // 11:12

OP, maybe you should play for more than 58 days. Try 58 weeks before you spout rubbish like this.

Assassins do just what they did in the start, nothing has changed. They are a horribly designed, instagib caster killing class, and they do that. All that's changed is a few SP builds etc have been nerfed.

You have wastrels, coward, YAA, moebius; beguiling haze is still not bad to a certain degree.

And if you want something different, you can run the A/Mo signet bullshit.

I really wish assassins were dead, or deleted, but they aren't, so stop complaining.

Perfected Shadow · Oct 09, 2009, 12:14 PM // 12:14

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OP, maybe you should play for more than 58 days. Try 58 weeks before you spout rubbish like this.

Assassins do just what they did in the start, nothing has changed. They are a horribly designed, instagib caster killing class, and they do that. All that's changed is a few SP builds etc have been nerfed.

You have wastrels, coward, YAA, moebius; beguiling haze is still not bad to a certain degree.

And if you want something different, you can run the A/Mo signet bullshit.

I really wish assassins were dead, or deleted, but they aren't, so stop complaining.

Ummm sorry to burst your rage or something, if you read more carefully (if at all), the OP is referring to pve.

Steps_Descending · Oct 09, 2009, 12:29 PM // 12:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by ~ Dan ~

OP, maybe you should play for more than 58 days. Try 58 weeks before you spout rubbish like this.

I find the use of the word rubbish ironic.
Considering the OP has summed it up pretty well, accept maybe for the word dead. Most builds are still competitive (anyone remember how Mes were seen before CoP? That was what I'd call dead. Class was fun and good in the hands of a skil...[ usual blabla], but the PvE reputation was low), but when was the last time you saw a non-SF sin in anything that might be considered high-end (not countign you H/Hing as a sin). Personnally it was in my last days of clearing FoW with TAM: guild group, balanced...

SweFighter · Oct 09, 2009, 01:58 PM // 13:58

IMO you are to new to the game to say that one of the most played charrs is dead lol.

SF=farm/noobs in pvp/or safers :P. The assassin is a RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing awsome charr, He do more dmg then other melee guys and even in shorter time.(+ area dmg with some skills)

ForgeWhelp · Oct 09, 2009, 02:24 PM // 14:24

Bow-Sin FTW! But that's how I roll....

syphonus · Oct 09, 2009, 08:38 PM // 20:38

It would be better titled 'Guild Wars' demise, IMO. Not exactly related to your post.

Mr. Undisclosed · Oct 11, 2009, 02:35 PM // 14:35

Lol you're so bad. Sins pump out some of the biggest damage in the game and still have a multitude of builds that are extremely effective. Also it's not like permanent SF is anything new, it's been possible since SF came out.

FoxBat · Oct 12, 2009, 08:05 AM // 08:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Undisclosed

Also it's not like permanent SF is anything new, it's been possible since SF came out.

It wasn't possible until nightfall (deadly paradox), and it wasn't stupid easy until pve split + eotn Glyph of Swiftness.

Mr. Undisclosed · Oct 12, 2009, 02:38 PM // 14:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

It wasn't possible until nightfall (deadly paradox), and it wasn't stupid easy until pve split + eotn Glyph of Swiftness.

Ah my bad, totally forgot Deadly was a NF skill. Okay point still stands though its been possible for years.

reaper with no name · Oct 12, 2009, 05:36 PM // 17:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Nihilist_

I wouldn't say that the Assassin profession is dead... MS/DB Assassins and CritScythe Sins are around, and LF Assassins loaded up with buffs eat face...

Actually, this supports his point. MSDB and Critscythe are based around melee AoE damage, which is anathema to what the assassin was meant to do (concentrated single-target damage).

Lieutenant Banana · Oct 12, 2009, 07:06 PM // 19:06

Like I said, maybe I just haven't been around long enough. But honestly, no-one has said anything that I wasn't pretty much expecting. I figured there'd be a sizable contingent of folks who'd immediately assume I didn't know what I was talking about by virtue of my inexperience, and I'd just like to address a couple of those individuals.

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My first 58 days of game time was spent getting to know my first class and finding skills and combos to make it workable in a team setting. I could care less what builds other people were using or abusing, particularly the farming ones.

How have *you* been spending your time?

Largely by doing what you said you did: Learning my first class, the Assassin, and figuring out what it could and couldn't do well. (example: even with Crit Def, Crit Agility, Way of Perfection and Mystic Regen up and running, an A/D should not try to be a frontline tank against Bladed Aatxes. Just doesn't seem to work out...no clue why, of course.) But as an inevitable side-effect of playing an Assassin, part of the way I've been spending my time is in the observance of just how small a percentage of end-game PvE Sins are anything but variants on the SF build. Really. Can you remember the last time a UW or FoW group--even a non-SC one--was actively advertising for anything but a SF Sin in ToA? I can--it was about a month ago, and the only reason I got in was because I offered to foot the bill. So that's pretty much how I've been spending my time--figuring out how the Assassin works, and then figuring out the fact that no-one expects--or wants--the Assassin to work in more than one particular way.

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IMO you are to new to the game to say that one of the most played charrs is dead lol.

Yeah, I am new. And actually, I agree with you: the Assassin is one of the most-played toons in the PvE game. But like I've said, what percentage of sins out there aren't an A/E or A/Me? A minute, minute amount--and those that aren't are usually either PvPers or A/Mo EotN dungeon farmers. Now, if you consider secondaries, this whole argument goes to hell--I'm fully aware that the Assassin is one of the most-utilized and one of the more diverse secondary classes in the game. But in terms of just primaries, I still stand by the point that the Assassin as a multi-use class is by and large dead.

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Really? Think about aura of displacement and similar skills, actually consider all shadowsteps, they all have recharges that are too long for general pve. They're just not worth it. The exception is Ebon Escape, but that takes up a pve skill slot. Meh I guess you could do some AP dagger builds with a shadowstep.

True, actually, and the point's well-taken...I was hunting for examples. I still stand by my original thesis that the Assassin as a DPS melee class is, if not dead, then at least treated mostly as a novelty, despite that being its original and intended function. (in PvE, of course...I have no experience in PvP, and I'm not going to try to pretend otherwise.)

Quote:

OP, maybe you should play for more than 58 days. Try 58 weeks before you spout rubbish like this.

Like I said, go to any high-end dungeon or explorable staging area. (SoO, Slaver's, UW, &c.) Count the number of NON-SF sins around, and perhaps even more tellingly, the number of groups actively looking for a non-SF sin. Then tell me this is rubbish.

As a final note, I'm not trying to start a flame war or single anyone out or anything like that by selecting these particular posts to respond to. I just felt that I should continue to defend my original thesis, and could best do so with these tidbits. I'm not trying to be pretentious or make statements above my station--this was really just meant to be an observance on my own experiences. If anyone can decisively prove me wrong, please do--I love the Assassin class, and I'm getting increasingly frustrated by the absolute dominance of this one build and its variants, and by the expectations that's putting on me as a a sin. But until that point, I'm sticking to my guns.

Mr. Undisclosed · Oct 12, 2009, 09:03 PM // 21:03

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Actually, this supports his point. MSDB and Critscythe are based around melee AoE damage, which is anathema to what the assassin was meant to do (concentrated single-target damage).

lolno, sins don't have a designated role. MSDB is pretty much a single target damage dealer considering pretty much everything dies before you even get to DB. Another widely used build also is out right now that focuses on single targets JS/FF. I believe theres another build somewhat in use using ap which revolves around single targets. Judging by the attributes sins have access to it looks as if it was meant to be a jack of all trades but a master of none.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lieutenant Banana

Largely by doing what you said you did: Learning my first class, the Assassin, and figuring out what it could and couldn't do well. (example: even with Crit Def, Crit Agility, Way of Perfection and Mystic Regen up and running, an A/D should not try to be a frontline tank against Bladed Aatxes. Just doesn't seem to work out...no clue why, of course.)

lol thats actually the main components of a farming build that is meant to frontline and solo.

Yeah, I am new. And actually, I agree with you: the Assassin is one of the most-played toons in the PvE game. But like I've said, what percentage of sins out there aren't an A/E or A/Me? A minute, minute amount--and those that aren't are usually either PvPers or A/Mo EotN dungeon farmers. Now, if you consider secondaries, this whole argument goes to hell--I'm fully aware that the Assassin is one of the most-utilized and one of the more diverse secondary classes in the game. But in terms of just primaries, I still stand by the point that the Assassin as a multi-use class is by and large dead.

Meh it seems like you're basing this largely on a few outposts, including ToA and it makes for a fail argument.

True, actually, and the point's well-taken...I was hunting for examples. I still stand by my original thesis that the Assassin as a DPS melee class is, if not dead, then at least treated mostly as a novelty, despite that being its original and intended function. (in PvE, of course...I have no experience in PvP, and I'm not going to try to pretend otherwise.)

The highest DPS dealing class in the game a novelty? I think not.

Like I said, go to any high-end dungeon or explorable staging area. (SoO, Slaver's, UW, &c.) Count the number of NON-SF sins around, and perhaps even more tellingly, the number of groups actively looking for a non-SF sin. Then tell me this is rubbish.

Go count the number of professions total that are looking for a group and aren't sins. By this argument all classes besides SF sins must be dead and novelties

Basing your finds on what pugs/farming pugs are looking for is bad.

Lieutenant Banana · Oct 12, 2009, 11:53 PM // 23:53

Like I said, I didn't want this to devolve into a flame war...and like I said, I'd love for someone to be able to prove me wrong with concrete examples. (i.e. "I've counted 20-odd non-SF or non-A/E sins in Lion's Arch in the last 2 hours...ergo, you fail.") But I'm perfectly happy to take apart the arguments (or counter-arguments) of others as well.

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lol thats actually the main components of a farming build that is meant to frontline and solo.

I'm aware. Believe it or not, I actually did some research before playing the game, and currently use a heavily modified version of the PvXwiki's A/D Death Blossom Farmer build to which you're referring. What relevance it has to your argument I'm not sure, since my original comment was more or less meant to be a joke.

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Meh it seems like you're basing this largely on a few outposts, including ToA and it makes for a fail argument.

Since my whole thesis revolves around my findings in high-end staging areas, which are where the largest concentration of high-level players tend to congregate (that and the major trading hubs, plus wherever Nick happens to be any given week), I'd say the argument's perfectly valid. But actually, no, I'm not just basing it on my findings in those areas. Go to Seitung Harbor, check the number of A/E's and A/Me's floating around. Hell, go check Ran Musu Gardens. Odds are you'll find a similar scenario...or better yet, I'll do it for you. As of 7:40 EDT, the time of my writing this, there are 6 Assassins in Ran Musu Gardens, discounting myself Of them, 3 are A/E's, one is an A/Me, and two are A/Mo's. 2/3 of the Assassins present in a LOW-LEVEL PvE outpost have the SF profession setup. Now granted that there's no way for me to know whether or not these sins are actually going to become permaformers--for all I know, those three A/E's could all be fans of the A/E Shock-Falling Spider combo. But somehow, given the prevalence of permaformers, I doubt it.

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The highest DPS dealing class in the game a novelty? I think not.

I didn't say they were a novelty...I said they were being treated as one. In truth, it's the permaform builds that are a novelty, seeing as they're a deviation from the original Assassin concept...but they're hardly being treated as such.

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Go count the number of professions total that are looking for a group and aren't sins. By this argument all classes besides SF sins must be dead and novelties

Now this I really don't get. Let me just quote from my original post for a moment:

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Now, granted that there are other classes who have come to be dominated by one particular build--witness the SS Rit, the 600 monk, the W/N Raptor farmer. But for all that, there still exist very mainstream alternatives to each of these--how about a healing Rit? A 55? A Hundred Blades DPS Warrior (or an Endure Pain/Warrior's Endurance tank)?

With that in mind, I don't quite understand how you could have arrived at the conclusion that I was saying the permaformer has destroyed the entire metagame. What I'm saying is that the permaformer has largely removed the possibility of other sin builds being accepted into high-level PUGs. Notice that I didn't say "notice that number of groups actively looking for anything that isn't a SF sin." Obviously high-end groups need something other than SF sins...my problem is that there's considerable reluctance to accept any sin that isn't specialized for SF.

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Basing your finds on what pugs/farming pugs are looking for is bad.

And why is this? 90% of any given group in the game is a PUG. People run PUGs for missions, for quests, for vanq runs, for dungeons, for high-end areas...I'd say basing my findings on the form of grouping that is by far the most dominant one in the game to be fairly logical.

Once again, let me emphasize that I'm only arguing this based on my observations. If someone out there can counter me based on what they've seen or experienced, please do so...I'd love to be proven wrong, since what I'm arguing for is a state of affairs that I actively dislike. But speaking in platitudes based on the assumption that by virtue of my inexperience I'm somehow not intelligent enough to recognize a weak counter-argument isn't going to convince me.

Carnivorous Cupcake · Oct 13, 2009, 12:46 AM // 00:46

What was the last time you saw a healing rit, 55 monk or any non-HB warrior being taken into consideration for any high end area like DoA? Answer is never.

Sins are a strong class, not just because of shadow form but also because they can deal more damage than any other class pretty much so it's easy to roll through pve using them.

Build choices? Daggers usually revolve around spamming DB so fundamentally they are all the same but theres also Scythe sins, barragers and less common builds using other physical weapons and even deadly arts (AP Caller). There is choice.

Are assassins a dead class? Nah, not really. Shadowsteps and all the sneaky tactics might be but not the entire class. After all they were supposed to be killing shit which they are doing perfectly well at the moment.

Bobby2 · Oct 13, 2009, 12:53 AM // 00:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carnivorous Cupcake

Are assassins a dead class? Nah, not really. Shadowsteps and all the sneaky tactics might be but not the entire class. After all they were supposed to be killing shit which they are doing perfectly well at the moment.

AP - Shadow Fang still feels leet as hell.